Wednesday, March 13, 2019

Perspective: The Poulton Project

About five or six years ago, I joined and got a lot from it. But I was unaware that it started as a result of the Poulton Project! All these years of wondering whether I could find the father of George Manley. Suddenly, I am back at the Poulton Project with Sir Nicholas as my 11th generation grandfather! Incredibly interesting.

All of the people I emailed with, including Jim Maule, Cathy Manly Sockol, many others. You can see on the right a response from Jim Maule to my entreaties that he be closer to me than 1500 years ago!

Some things you might do - Wikitree is excellent! You need an email address and a password to log in but you might try "Manley-209" to see what it's like. It's

The "Meet the Ancestors: The Black Hand" is not available, but the transcript is. See this URL.

The Poulton Project is not available, but a close project is. See the Time Teams work.

Manley/Manly - Moved Back Five Generations!

Well, Doug Manley extended his streak. In addition to to Thomas Manley, father of George Manley, he has extended this streak back to 1475, with the birth of Sir Nicholas Manley. That's five generations.

  • Let see them in turn. The father of George is Thomas Manley. He was born in 1605 in London and died in Banbury in 1683. (George is the father of Lazarus Manley.)

  • The father of Thomas is Richard Manley. There are two Richards in a row. There is not much on the first one. He lived to be almost 72. He married Margaret Larken in 1583.

  • Then his father, also Richard Manley, married Marie Lowman in 1549. He lived to 65.

  • Now to the "Sirs." The first was Sir Peter Manley, called DeManLegh. He was born in London in 1518 and died in Babington in 1590. He lived to be 72.

  • Now to Sir Nicholas Manley. born in Babington in 1475. He died in Poulton in 1520. He is the focus on the Poulton Research effort resulting in the BBC's 1998 "Meet your Ancestors: The Black Hand." He married Stanley Ellen. He died when he was only 45 years old. Below is a clay mask from his skeleton. Look familiar?

Tuesday, February 5, 2019

Welcome to Anne Woodworth's Lazarus Addition!

Welcome Anne Woodworth! Anne had a penchant for taking little genealogy trips. She was famous for her Carthage trips, and Linda, David and I joined her on a trip to Fairfield, Illinois. She was the first to tie Lazarus Manley to our list of descendants.

When she passed away, she left her rather massive genealogy collection to her son, Bobby Armstrong. There was much discussion about what to do. Finally, the children of all of us decided that the collection should be digitized. The first attempt was to digitize the first Lazarus "book." This David and I did when he visited me in January.

Because this this book is over sixty megabytes, it can't be served in the usual way, so I sent Adobe email to the usual culprits, and it was possible to download the file for free. It has it own place in the Adobe cloud which I maintain for about $14/month, which I think is a deal! I can make PDF's of any length. People can download them and use them for free.

 This is Anne Woodworth in her home.
It's a cute place, nicely done. With lots of genealogy!
 This was taken in 2007 when we did Carthage. We stopped by Hank's (below).
 Hank was a long time admirer! He had a team of workers in his work area. He was working on an old radio, an old Zenith, I think.
Here she embraces Katie (of Sarah and Katie). We have the photo to them all below. Sarah and Katie are the daughters of Carol, the daughter of Bob Manley.

 Here is the pictures of her house.

And here is the picture of Carol's two daughters and their husbands. Carol you'll remember is the daughter of Bob Manley.

Monday, April 2, 2018

We Have a New Grandfather!

We have the father to George Manly. He is Thomas Manly!

We have to thank Doug Manley for this.

(Doug goes back to Lazarus Manley - and indeed Thomas and George - but came from one of Lazarus's different sons, George Manley).

Who else is involved? A great-great-great-great-great-great-great great great grandmother: Cassandra Button.

And for those for whom this Blog is a new thing: George Manly's wife: Elizabeth Basstone.


Wednesday, July 1, 2015

Better: "Our" (Proto)-Gaul

Linda Moore noted that according to Mike Parker Pearson, there are no Celts in England or Ireland. They are Gauls.

So not to be confusing, let's dispense of "Celt" altogether. It's significant that the U152's later on most probably became Gauls. This link has some excellent maps as well as the material on the Bituriges, who flourished from the 6th century BC is what is now Belgium. They are Celts, too. I'm not sure what the larger category is.

Our Proto-Gaul forefather, then, lived about 1,600 BC, about a 1,000 years before the Bituriges. But the link above references David K. Faux and his "Hypothesis C" which involves U152 and has to do with the connection of this ancestor and the Bituriges.

Tuesday, June 30, 2015

"Our" (Proto-) Celt

The most interesting insight that I've had in the past several days is that I can trace my ancestry back to a particular individual who lived about 1,600 BC in Northern Italy. As I understand it, he is the individual who "started" the U152 subclade. In particular, the gene mutation is the one he passed down to the rest of the U152 line. It is then possible to talk about and research where this U152 line lived and when.

The U152 subclade is a sub-sub-sub-clade of the R1b haplotype, of which I'm a member. A deeper U152 subclade is the L20 of which I am also a member. A comparably deep but different U152 subclade is the L2 of which Jim Maule is a member and I am not. The split occurred sometime after 1,600 BC. Scholars are researching where members of the L20 and L2 subclades lived and moved then. Some ended up in Scandanavia. Others in Belgium and Southern France.

The second most interesting insight that I have had is that some members of these subclades almost certainly became Celts. (The Celts came later than our guy, so I guess we have to call him a Proto-Celt.)

There is far more research on this than I ever imagined. A lot is available on the Family Tree DNA website in the U152 Project. I'm not sure is this is available to the public, but try here.

There are many groups studying this niche, including this one focusing on the U152-L2 branch. I suspect I'll find one for "my" branch of U152-L20. (Both are preceded by "R1b".)

But by far the most comprehensive is a paper in pdf format by David K. Faux. To say it is "comprehensive" is an understatement. In terms of our time frame, 1,600 BC, skip to page 35.

The Bituriges of Belgium were later, but researches are hard at work to connect later U152 people with them. That would in effect mean connecting L2's and L20's with them. The l2's have a slightly closer connection at the present time.

It's very likely that the U152 group is associated with the "Beaker Culture" group of that time. The grouping here is by pottery rather than DNA.

Much data! But the takeaway is person who defined the U152 subclade 3,600 years ago.

Sunday, June 28, 2015

So go back at least 2,000 years

My disappointment that the apparent closeness of the Maule/Manley haplotypes did not lead to the discovery of a father for George Manley was partly offset by the discovery that we may have some Celtic ancestors. It was also offset by a better understanding of the haplotype tree, which Jim Maule and I share, but not exactly.

A haplotype is a group of ancestors who lived long enough in a particular place to generate one or more mutations. Our ancestors lived long enough in and about England that it's clear that we are a part of a very general  haplotype called the "R1" haplotype.

A lot of people can trace their ancestry back to this big category that includes Europe and England. But with more research, it has become possible to narrow down this big category, becoming more and more precise about where and when our ancestors were. And instead of the long form of representing haplotypes, there are now (happily) short forms. Instead of our haplotype being represented R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 it is simply L20 (sometimes L-20 or even R-L20). 

This is known as "subclade" which is nothing but a subdivision of a larger group. It turns out that the R1 haplotype has many subclades (themselves haplotypes, but more specific ones).  A key subclade is the U152 subclade. Another is the L2 subclade which is different from the L20 subclade.

Jim Maule and I both are in the U152 subclade, but he is in the L2 subclade of that (think branch and twig), whereas I am in the L20 subclade of the U152. 

Note the last row of the table on the previous posting. " are not related and the odds greatly favor that you have not shared a common male ancestor with this person within thousands of years. You are probably even in different Haplogroups on the Phylogenetic tree of Homo Sapiens."

Jim and I are in different haplogroups. He is in the subclade L2 and I am in the subclade L20. That creates a genetic distance which may extend several thousand years. But we are both in the larger subclade U152. This means that we share a common ancestor. But that common ancestor lived several thousand years ago. There is a genetic connection, but it is not recent enough to be helpful in genealogy which only goes back 400 years to the time of George Manly.

But this raises the question of how far back? And where? This is where it becomes interesting again. For example, it is possible to locate approximately when the L20's diverged from the L2's and where. Think of that one individual about 1650 BC. It could well be that he is Jim Maule's and my common ancestor! The time frame is about right "thousands of years" (3,600). 

Tibor Feher believes that the U152 subclade began with a single individual living in Northern Italy about 1650 BC. Those who test negative for L2 (as I did) and positive for DYS 492=12 (as I did) are regarded as closest to the U152 line. But the L2s and L20's split here, sometime after 1650 BC.We are U152's, but now distinct.

Over the years, descendents from this individual moved out from southern Europe and are found as far away as Scandanavia. Efforts are now being made to link at least one of these groups to the Celts of Belgium, including the Bituriges.  Celts and/or Druids in our past? More soon.